Justin Wayman, Director of Human Resources at Cedar Band Corporation, discussed the transition from college to the workforce, emphasizing the significant shift from structured academic life to the real world. He highlighted the importance of a college degree as a launch pad for careers, noting it shows commitment, teachability, and a foundation of skills. Wayman advised students to gain practical experience through internships or real-world projects. He also addressed the misconception that a high GPA is crucial, stating it's more about performance and teachability. Lastly, he noted that job hopping can be a red flag, and staying with a company for at least two years can enhance career growth and stability.
In this episode, Bobby and Trekker sit down with Justin Wayman, Director of Human Resources at Cedar Band Corporation, to talk about the transition from college to the workplace — and what new graduates can realistically expect in their first jobs.
Justin shares his own journey from studying engineering at SUU to finding his passion in human resources, explaining how a single mentor changed his career path. He breaks down why college degrees still matter to employers, even in a changing job market, and offers practical advice on gaining real-world experience through internships and hands-on projects.
The conversation dives into key myths about GPA, job hopping, and job qualifications — and how students can set themselves apart by being teachable, committed, and open to growth.
Key Takeaways
Memorable Quotes
Bobby Hodge 00:12
hello T birds and other listeners, welcome back to the career Cafe podcast. I'm your host. Bobby here with my co host, Trekker. I'm tracker, and we have a very special guest today, Justin Wayman, thank you so much for being here. Well, thank you for inviting me. I'm glad to be here today. Yeah, just, just a little quick intro. Again, I told you I did a little LinkedIn stalking, So correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Bobby Hodge 00:36
Justin is currently the Director of Human Resources at Cedar band Corporation. He's held HR roles at Tamra mining company, CS mining. You've overseen recruitment, performance management and employee development, plus you were proud SUU alum, well, maybe proud, hopefully, proud, hopefully,
Trekker Burt 00:55
yeah, still, still a proud SUU alum. Perfect. Oh yeah. You've even got your su wrist bands. I do. I do. I
Justin Wayman 01:00
try to find ways to support in any way I can throughout the community. So
Trekker Burt 01:05
Well, thanks for being here today. Man, appreciate it. Thank you. Let
Bobby Hodge 01:09
me just quickly introduce the topic. This is one that you chose when you signed up. So hopefully a little bit passionate about it, but realistic expectations for your first job out of college and why a college degree is still important to employers. So we'll get a little bit into their that today.
Trekker Burt 01:28
Does that sound right?
Justin Wayman 01:31
Accurate? Those are two really big questions that I deal with, both professionally and personally, on the two sides of, really, for me, on the two sides of a professional, working on the side of the company as that represented, then also on the other side of helping and providing mentoring and advisement to individuals on how do I do better in my job? How do I actually get a job? What can I expect going out of college, coming out of school, going into the real world. I look forward to getting into that and talking about it, because nobody's written a book about it yet. And my you're not weird, like you're not really prepared when you come out of college, when you finish school, for that transition, and there's a lot that transpires in a very short amount of time. When you make that change, when you go from student to employee, it is a very big step. It's a threshold that's quite large, and it's one that we don't talk about enough. And so that's why those are the topics that I chose, and I do look forward to getting into that conversation much deeper. Yeah, perfect, really quickly, before we get into that talk, a little bit about your transition from, you know, su student, to where you are today. How did you end up as director of HR? That's a great question, and I'll keep the story short for me becoming director of HR, with where I'm at today, I will go back to the beginning at my time at Suu. When I first came to Suu, I started I was pursuing a completely different aspect. Educationally, I was actually pursuing engineering. Is what I was pursuing. I enjoyed it, the mathematical parts, analyticals. There were a lot of elements of it that I really enjoyed and did well in over the course of a few years, I learned I was not able to really speak fluently in the language of physics. That became a turning point for me. So you're one of the majority, the majority fair, and that was okay. I don't speak that language well, but I do have family members who do in that regard. However, at that time, when I was here at issue, I had a great mentor and teacher who saw skill that I had, particularly in the communication space, strategically from both a visual a visual aspect presentation and communicating and working with people during the introduction class that she she taught at that time, and this was well over 10 years ago, plus she saw that skill set, and she pulled me aside and basically said, you have a skill here, and this is something you could do well. And if, if, if we had this type of a thing, this is where I'd be putting you. And that captured my interest, that captured my attention. And I said, No, I'm going to pursue this. I'm going to see what kind of an opportunity can can come in this school aspect, where I'm here academically pursuing that. And so I switched from engineering over to strategic communications, a very vast change in in my academic horizon and pursuits. From there, I finished my schooling and I graduated. And shortly after graduating from Suu, which was one of the best times of my life, I met my wife here at SU you. So I have to pay homage to that. This is a wonderful institution. Still love su you.
Justin Wayman 05:00
Once I graduated, su you, I was fortunate to have a job prior to graduation, working as a creative marketing associate, and I was working for a marketing and advertising operation that oversaw a multi spread of E commerce operations online. So we did a lot of digital things. I worked there for a few years, and things started to change in a direction that I didn't want them to go, and so I looked out in the horizons. I said, Hey, I've got this skill working well with people. What else can I do? I don't I don't really want to stay in advertising. I want to get out into something that's a bit more interactive with people. I do enjoy working hand in hand and helping people develop, going those places, found an opportunity to a company that I had internshiped with prior to my engineering days, and realized, well, I don't want to do engineering, but they have an opportunity in their human resource department. They're seeking an administrator, and that was where my journey started in human resources to where I am today. I went to a mining company, little small town, Milford, Utah. Oh, yeah, you know, the locals know it, but a lot of people outside it's, it's very small. I commuted out there for for five years, and that was where things started for me in human resources and people operations. And I grew to love it. I grew a passion in that space. And now that's where I am here today.
Trekker Burt 06:22
HR, Justin, you make HR sound more interesting than anybody I've ever heard.
Justin Wayman 06:27
No day, no day is ever the same in human resources, I can say
Trekker Burt 06:31
that, yes, what? What is it? I mean, it sounds like you had you had a professor pull you aside. Notice something about you. Help you discover that about yourself, right? And we all need that perspective sometimes. What? What is it about HR that you enjoy so much? Besides the fact that it sounds like it's a strength for you, it
Justin Wayman 06:50
is a strength to me. It's a strength that I've had to work on. Yeah, what I love so much about HR, and this is, this is an answer that I've continually used over the years. It's the people aspect. And I say that with passion and meaning is it truly is the people, because it's not only the people that I get to work with, but it's also the people that I get to work for. Because, as in human resources, I like to think of it, and I've described it this way, as we're a turntable that rotates 360 degrees. There are times where we have to represent the company and the management, and we face the workforce, and we share with them. Here's the new change that's happening, and here's why it's happening, and here's the good that can come from it. It's going to be hard, but we can do this. And then in that same token, there's also times where we have to pivot, and we have to face to the company and to management and share with them. Here's what the workforce is wanting, here's here's what's not working, and here's what we recommend to change that so that we can make this more beneficial. So it's it's a constant twist and turn in both directions. And that is one of the things that I really love about it isn't is no day is ever the same as I've mentioned. But I get to represent and I get to work with amazing people, amazing leaders, and I get to work with everywhere, from the newest employee who just started last week to the employee who's been with us for 17 years. I get to work with both of those people and everywhere in between. And it is. It's such a fun thing to share with all of them in that regard. And that's the people part of human resources, or people operations, however you want to term it, but it's the people part. That's what I love about it, because I found I have skills in that area, but it's working with the people that makes it fun, not just with a computer all day, you get to work with people
Bobby Hodge 08:49
that's great, very different from engineering. Very, very different
Justin Wayman 08:53
from engineering. I came to find out in an internship working with an engineer in that respect, I realized this is not what I want to do my whole I want to interact with people.
Trekker Burt 09:05
Well, it's like, I think most I don't know anybody. Okay, there's a few. A lot of people get to school, and I changed my major three or four times, you know, just trying to find it, trying to find what I was good at, what I could enjoy doing every day. But no, glad you changed. It sounds like it was for the best. I best. I'm glad I changed it too. Yeah.
Bobby Hodge 09:25
So, so let's just get into the topic. I mean, I have some questions, but you have some notes. What should students really be expecting from their first job out of college? Well,
Justin Wayman 09:36
first and foremost, as we, as we began talking about the biggest change, is that it's not what you think it's going to be when we graduate, when we leave the academic world, and we come out of school with our degrees, our new credentials, and we go into the workforce, the expectations of what you're facing is you're now going from a world that has been struck. Insured and set with syllabuses and curriculums like the standard and how to get from A to B has been set for you, and the performance measurement has been pretty straightforward. It's you get an F or you get an A, it's an everything in between. That's, that's how the system works when you step into the workforce, and you now transition into your first workplace, everything shifts, because the expectations of what you've experienced in college, in that in that school setting, they no longer exist. That's not how the professional world operates. So you have changes completely in everything from structure to culture to performance to how you gage yourself. And the biggest expectation, I would say that you need to be aware of is you're stepping out of a world where you're given assignments, you're given things ahead of time, and you're no and you're told, Hey, this is the expectation. Need to get this right. You're going to get a grade back. That doesn't happen anymore, that has now changed in the workplace to where it's you're now given a duty, a role and an assignment, and you have to figure out how to do most of it, if not all. And that's the biggest expectation, the biggest change that a lot of people go through when they move from school into the real world, into the workplace, and that change is not an easy one, because it can vary vastly depending on what your job is. Where you work, are you working in an office? Are you working on site, on some type of project, or are you working remotely from your computer, from from your own home? All of those factors change how that dynamic works. But the real expectations is you're going to a completely new setting, like when you got there, when your first day of college, it's intimidating, scary. I know that's how mine was, and you had to figure out how it all worked first day in the job. Same thing, you have to figure out how it works, how it changes and the expectations. It's not going to be easy. You're not going to be the 100% person that knocks it out of the park that knows everything of what's going on. You have to realize that you're first going to have a very steep and a very big learning curve, one that's going to be very continuous throughout your career, throughout your life, and throughout this job. And that's an important part, is knowing that you're going to have to relearn and learn a lot of things. For me, one of the biggest things that I learned was this isn't what they taught me in school. Yeah. And I know quite a few people, high level individuals that I've worked with, have said that same thing, what I did in school and what I first started doing in the job, completely different things. There were similarities, but they were not in the same box. It's not going to be a clear transition of, hey, you learned all this in the textbook. Now you got to figure out how to do it. It's Hey, the textbook helped you. That's going to be your foundation. But now you have to figure out how to learn how to do this yourself. And a lot of managers, they'll give you, they'll help train you on kind of the crash course, get you started, but then they're going to essentially say, You got to figure this out. Now. You have to take the initiative. You got to self start
Trekker Burt 13:27
well. And it to me, it shows how important your time at college is, not just for learning the things from the textbook, right, but for learning how to learn, for learning how to be a self starter, for learning how to adapt to different working environments and systems. You know, yes, because you're exactly right, the rest of your life is not going to be turned it in by this deadline. And here's your rubric and grade, right?
Bobby Hodge 13:52
Yeah, I think that that idea of higher ed, we kind of come to school and we learn a lot about theory. Everything's theoretical, and even when you're doing assignments, I look at it from my marketing perspective. Of, you know, I learned how to put together a marketing campaign. Never once in my undergrad did I carry out a marketing campaign. I kind of just put it on paper, and then all of a sudden I get to my first job and like, Okay, well now go do it. And you're like, oh, yeah, I guess that's what have to play
Justin Wayman 14:19
theory into practice now, and that's that's really the biggest difference from an employer perspective, any company, any manager, that's the biggest thing they're looking from is during that course of transition, shock, that learning curve is, hey, you have this degree, Excellent, great, awesome launch pad, great foundation. Now show me you can do it. Yep, and it's difficult. It is a transition, because in a lot of positions and a lot of companies, there's not going to be somebody next to you showing you how to do it. There may be a team that you're working with, or they may be a manager or supervisor or mentor who's helping you, but they're not going to do it for you. They're going to say, hey, you have to figure this out. You. Have to implement this. One of the other big things with that culture shock is the relationships that you have, especially from a school standpoint, with classmates and instructors now to management team members and colleagues, that gets completely redefined and nobody prepares you for that.
Trekker Burt 15:20
What What can an undergrad today do to prepare for that type of change, the shock, the transition shock, but also the structural change, the employee relationships change like, what can somebody that's say, their sophomore year of college do today to prep for that
Justin Wayman 15:37
biggest step that you could take in making and preparing yourself for that transition and that change is get an internship. That's really where I would point you. Said, find an internship. Find a find a job in the actual workspace. Maybe it's not your preferred workspace, but it's relevant or it's connected. Find an internship, find a job opportunity and start that process. Get into that process while you're in this high, really hyper focus, this high level learning environment, while you're pursuing your degree, put yourself into that space, and you'll already make steps ahead of everybody else in terms of how the relationships are defined, how they're built, how they're structured, how to go about with self direction, and what's expected from you, other than just the structure of here's your assignment. It's due by this date. It's hey, here's this new marketing campaign. Here's this project that I need you to do, and the deadline is five weeks from now. I need all the results. Put yourself in that situation, find it and start learning that as you go and that will be of immense and extreme value to you in doing that. If, if an internship is not something you can find, and if having a job while you're going to school is too is too difficult. Sometimes it's too much with the time that you have to commit and what your capacities are. If that's not the case, find opportunities to do real world projects, whether that's through volunteering, or maybe look into a class that actually says, Hey, we're going to actually interact with clients. We're gonna actually like do real advertising. Here. We're going to actually do a campaign. We're going to do something real structure. We're going to actually build a project. Go to those types of places, whether it's with a class or even with a club, become a part of something where you have to do real world applications, and that's going to set you apart and really help you with that foundation and preparing so that that transition shock is less debilitating, it's less impactful. And with it being a shock, it now actually starts to feel like more of a transition than just a oh my gosh, I'm in a completely new place, like now I have to learn how to breathe water. Yeah, for example. Like, no, it's, it's not going to be that. Now, it's a process of, Hey, you, you've been in the water, you've learned how to swim. You got your degree. Here's your snorkel,
Trekker Burt 18:14
rather than getting pushed off, rather than
Justin Wayman 18:15
just you got pushed off the boat. And like, hey, figure it out. Yeah. So, yeah, not that process. So an internship, a job, a club, real world applications, those are going to be the biggest value to you. So there, those are some of the solutions that I would propose to someone who's preparing to graduate in the next 123, years, start that process in preparing for the real world now, because your degree and what you're doing at college that is not the finish line, that's not the destination, that's the next milestone on your journey to where you're headed. So we need to shift our mindset in that regard of college, the degree I've accomplished it I'm finished. No, you're not finished. You've just completed building the launch pad for your career. Now you've got to put the rocket on and take off and start finding where you're going
Bobby Hodge 19:15
to go. I think that kind of segues into this question, when, when you signed up with this topic, and it was expectations of your first job. Kind of the first thing that came to my mind is, and I'll just like preface it with this story of my own life, that I grew up in a blue collar family, first generation college student, and my dad always told me, you know, you go get a college degree and like, you're, you're gonna be fine. You're, gonna have it made like I expected when I started college. I thought, yeah, once I graduate, they're just gonna hand me like, you know, six figure job in management right away. I don't know if you thought at all about this, like when you were prepping for years, but as somebody in HR, do you see that college students are coming in maybe expecting a little bit? More than they're actually prepared for.
Justin Wayman 20:02
Yes, okay, I'm mindful and cautious in saying that is, it is something that that I do see
Bobby Hodge 20:11
well, and I think it's important we talk about it, because there are probably students out there that are thinking the same way. You kind of need to know what you're getting signed up for,
Justin Wayman 20:21
you do in preparing for those expectations and that change, it is really important to understand that simply because you've completed your college degree, you have those credentials, you have that experience, that commitment, and there's a lot of lot of good foundational things in the workplace and skills that you learn in that area. That's not the finish line. That's not the Oh, hey, you did it. Okay, here's this, here's your six figure job, here's your desk, here's your corner office. That's, that's unrealistic, that's, that's not there. So the reality is, okay, what can you really expect coming out of this? Well, with your college jury going into it, I would advise and recommend anyone pursuing that is really use it as a tool, because that's what it is. It's a tool that that gives you, in the human resource space from a recruiting standpoint, that tool is a filter. That tool helps me to filter out who has certain soft skills, who has certain intelligence levels, who has certain experience, but who hasn't been in the workforce very long. And that filter can really help me to push out and say, hey, look, I've got five individuals who have a degree, who have been a part of this type of an experience, who have this type of knowledge compared to everyone else, that gives a big advantage, or that's a that's a differentiator, that helps them to get to that next level. So your degree is not the finish line, it's not the distinguisher. It's not a hey, this is going to set you up for the rest of your life. No, this is the gateway to the rest of your life. And that's really the phrase, I would say, is in order to open up that that key, with that experience, those credentials, it's a gate, getting your college degree, getting your certificate, getting those credentials. It's a process of getting through that gate and that certificate, that diploma, that degree, that's your key. It opens that gate. Well, now you got to, you get across the threshold and go into the world. Now get to go into the workplace. That's where it's all going to come to test. It's great. This guy's got 15 years experience. That's awesome. He's an expert in what he does. This other guy, he's got 12 years of experience, and he's got a bachelor's degree in this. He's got a master's degree in this. This guy has put in commitment. He's built some skills in an environment that align with what we do as an operation that may be more valuable, that may be more of what we're looking for, versus someone who has that 1520, years of experience. So there's some, there's some key advantages with that. In terms of reality, you don't expect the world to be handed to you. It's not going to be, if anything more so now than ever before is you have to work at getting that first opportunity. There are less jobs now than there were 10 years ago. AI is having a big impact on that, but you have to start somewhere. I would, I would highly advise, for anyone graduating the next two to three years, don't think of your your your graduation as I'm done. I'm finished. Think of it as a launch point of, hey, I've gotten to this point. I'm ready to go. I'm taking off. Can use the use the example of NASA astronauts, scientists, they spend how many years training for that one moment of launch off? Yeah, you're right, a lot. They spend tons of time. College is the same thing. You spend years of your life, hours upon hours, hundreds of hours, if not 1000s or more, preparing for that single graduation point. Once you get that, then it's, you launch, you take off. Now you got to go into the world. You don't know exactly where you're going. You have a destination, but how you get there, that's, that's the opportunity.
Bobby Hodge 24:35
Yeah, I think that, playing off of that NASA analogy, a student can look at that and go, Well, you know, I don't want to do all the front work. I just want to get in and get experience. You know, how often are they going to say, oh, yeah, you've never been to a classroom. Come and learn about rockets. Come play with rockets and get experience. It's exactly what you're talking about. I was like, that's the gateway of like. You have to have the degree you have to you have to kind of pay your dues and say, Okay, I'm capable of learning how to do your job because I know the lingo. I know the theoretical side of it. Now teach me the practical sides. And I think, think I'm kind of talking in a circle now, but
Justin Wayman 25:16
no, you so you're not well, if that's a circle, it's, I would call it a circle from the top view. It's a spiral going up in that regard, that's exactly it. For a college degree is something that, as an employer shows any company you're teachable and you're committed. Well, that's, that's what that's what companies, that's what employers, it's what teams want. They want somebody who is teachable and committed. Can you learn what I need you to learn to do this job? Are you going to be committed to our operation and what we do? And those are two very important things in going about it. From an employability standpoint, a degree is huge. It shows me as a recruiter, if I'm evaluating your resume and I'm looking this before I've even talked to you, those are two things that I'm looking at. I'm working at your work history, and I'm looking at, what's your education? What kind of credentials do you have? Oh, you have a bachelor's degree, you have a master's degree. You're pursuing a master's degree, and you're still looking to work. You are teachable, you're committed. You have an understanding on structure. You have an understanding in areas that are difficult to learn, certain skills that you can't learn elsewhere. So a college degree really, it's, it still, it still matters in that respect, because it's, it's not only the gateway, I would say it's, it's the gateway, and it comes with the key of unlocking and going forward. Now, where you go from there is entirely up to you, but you got to have those two things.
Trekker Burt 26:46
So we've, we've talked a lot about, like, the transition from college to career, first career, right? And how? And then we talked about the value of the degree in getting the job. You know, if you're, you're using it as a filter. You know, we've got college degree holders and non and you know, you you know what to expect from somebody who's graduated college. Let's talk about maybe further down the road, somebody that's that's been at the same job for 20 years, maybe gradually moved their way up, and they're looking for a promotion. And you've got that person who does not have a degree, but they've got 20 years of experience do the same types of things apply to that person who's further on in their career as the first applicant, when you're comparing degree holders versus non degree holders.
Justin Wayman 27:34
So that's a really, really good question, in looking at it, telling you from a first hand basis. It's not the same. It's not particularly if you've if down the line, if you've been in that same place for 510, 15 years. That has a huge amount of value in looking for a promotional opportunity. Credentials and qualifications are going to come into that more so qualifications and just credentials. Because if you've been here for I'll give an example, we've we've got team members the companies that I work for. We've got team members who have been there for 1015, 17 years. That's, that's a long time. It's a long
Trekker Burt 28:19
time. It's a very long as old as a lot of our students, in
Justin Wayman 28:23
some cases, yes, but you've been there for 17 years. How? How much commitment is that? That's a huge amount of commitment, plus, from an employer standpoint, if you've been here that long, you know who we are. You're part of who we are that has a value in and of itself, that really goes beyond just simple credentials, of having having a degree or having a certificate. It it goes long. It goes farther than that. It's beyond that. So from a promotion perspective, just kind of little glimpse, if I've got two individuals that I'm looking at, one who's been with the company for 20 years, and they're, you know, they're looking to make this transition into this new management space with this department that they've been a part of for the last 12 and I've got an external hire that has great credentials, got good work history, looks pretty good, but doesn't stick around for more than three or four years. That decision for me is pretty cut forward. I know what I'm going to recommend to management in that respect, because it's Hey, we have somebody here who understands our business, they understand our product, they understand what we do. They've been here for a very long time. And there's someone who we can teach to become a good manager, if they're not already a good manager, like we can, we can teach you on that, because you already know how to do the job. You already know how to do the business. The skills part, we can work on that. We can teach that. Whereas coming from the outside, and this is where that transition shock comes in, you have to learn how to do the business. You have. To learn what the operation is, you have to learn what your job is. That's a lot of learning curve to get through in any position there. So that's that's an important thing. And what I would would add to that, something that's important with this a college degree, is something that sets the foundation for that learning curve. Because you're continually learning new things, you're challenging yourself for 345, sometimes eight years going through that process, well, that has a large amount of value. It's not the finish line, but that has a lot of managed value, and it can really help you to get to that starting point, to that next level on where you're going and on.
Bobby Hodge 30:45
I'll cut in for just a second, because I, you know, you kind of brought up the example that I think most students start to look at when they ask that question of, is a college degree worth it? It's like, well, if I could just go get 20 years experience, of course, I'm going to beat the recent college grad.
Justin Wayman 31:01
Well, when you find the store that gives that, let you know, Yeah, but you're
Bobby Hodge 31:05
not competing with the 20 year veteran of the company for positions like, what you're realistically looking at when you're asking that is a college degree worth it is you're saying, okay, am I more valuable to an employer as a recent college grad or a recent high school grad like those are the people you're going to be competing with. I think this idea of the 20 year employer that you're going to be because of your college like that just doesn't happen.
Justin Wayman 31:29
It's not realistic. No, it's it's not very common. And that's a really good example. Is in from a comparison standpoint, you're, you're trying to get into a company. Your buddy. So I'll try trying to get into the same company. You just finished your college degree and graduated. Just you graduated last May. Awesome. Great job. Fantastic. Your buddy. However, he decided he wanted to go a few different ways of life. Has tried a few different things, and now he wants to go here. So he's got his high school diploma, but he doesn't have the credentials of a college degree. Now, in comparison, depending on what the job may be, but we'll say that it's applicable in this situation. From that comparability standpoint, that college degree is going to speak a lot louder. It's going to be a lot more attractive to an employer because it shows commitment, it shows skills and teachability versus something else. Now there's, there's from a recruiting standpoint, there's one operation that I assist with quite a bit, and with the hiring that we do, we don't always require or need a college degree, right in quite a few the positions, we just need a high school diploma. That's really all we need. When we start doing it from a comparison standpoint, though, and we look at and say, okay, you've you've done you've got two years relevant experience and you've jumped around, but you have a high school diploma, and that's it. And we go, and we look at somebody else's like, Oh, you have one year of experience, but you have a college degree, and it's in this which applies directly to our business operation and to this position. I may not have to train you as much. I may not have to teach you as much for you to learn the job. And I can tell you I know quite a few managers. That's a big factor for them. That's where that college degree comes in. Realistically, you're just you're gonna have to learn a new job, you're gonna have to tune up on your school skills again, but having that credential is going to put you a step above somebody else from a comparability standpoint, when you've got that versus someone who doesn't a college degree is not just still important, but I would say that it's important to us as employers because it shows commitment. It shows a loyalty factor. It shows a willingness that you're willing to put in the time, to put in the effort, to put in the focus to be a better person, to be a better individual, to do a good job, because it's not easy to simply say, hey, I want that four year degree. Give me the tests and I'll take them. That's That's not how it works.
Trekker Burt 34:20
Can't do University of YouTube and then
Justin Wayman 34:22
take them right? I still haven't seen the YouTube University plaque So, but yeah, it's, it's difficult. When you put in that commitment, you put in that growth, that's something that matters to us
Trekker Burt 34:35
as employers, and the follow through does the completion to the completion of it, if I may. I was on a hiring committee recently, and our minimum requirement for the job was an associate degree. And I mean, nowadays, students usually just skip that entirely. You don't even apply, right? But, but we had applicants with master's degrees applying. We had applicants with bachelor's associate. Associates, but we had, what I thought was interesting and relevant to this conversation, is we had a pool who did have some college experience, but they didn't finish the degree. And it's like, you know, this person may have taken one class, this person may have been one class short of that degree, but it was the follow through and the completion that that got them a job interview. You know, it's just that one that one degree short of what I mean, temperature, degree, whatever it is that they didn't complete it, and then that's why they didn't get an interview.
Justin Wayman 35:35
Yeah, I've met with quite a few of those individuals myself with various positions. Is some college experience, but no degree. Oh, okay, tell me why. You know what? What happened from a people perspective, as I'm looking at you know, this is something that's important to us, but what are the realistic expectations going forward and and I like to ask those kinds of individuals the question of, tell me about your college experience. What have you completed? And what do you consider to be your biggest regret or your biggest failure in life so far? That's That's a question I asked them, and oftentimes they'll answer, and quite a few of them do, is not finishing school. Okay, tell me why. Why didn't you finish school? What happened? What was the situation of life that may have occurred? And sometimes you find out, and you realize there's no way like it was kind of life and survive or potentially be in a very dangerous situation. It can go a lot of directions. So I like to ask that question. But there are, there is a growing number of people who start the college journey, and either they make the decision or they come to realize, hey, this isn't for me, and that's all right. There's nothing wrong with that. If it's not for you, maybe, so you can use that to your advantage. And for me, I would, I would recommend, if you still want some education, you still want some certification in that regard, something to give you an advantage outside of having to put in two, three years to become really good at something, go to a trade school, find a find a skill in the trade aspect, see where you can go with that, because that's another realistic expectation in what you're doing, is maybe what you studied in school and what you got a degree in isn't something that translates to the real world in terms of a Work Opportunity. It's statistically the number continues to kind of waver. But last I checked with pandemic results, they said near 60% 60% of individuals who graduate end up working in a field or an industry that has no relevancy to what they did in school. Oh, wow, that's an alarmingly high number in that regard. But it also does go to show that there's value to it. There's a huge value to it. It's difficult to say, hey, you have a bachelor in arts, awesome. Where can I employ you if you're artistic? It's kind of a little pretty limited field as an example, but it also shows me, hey, you've got a bachelor's in arts. Great. You're committed. You have some skills. You understand structure, you understand reporting. There's some things that you learned there that you can't learn without time, and usually some experiences in the actual workforce, but you can learn them pretty quick in the school setting. And so there's, there's a lot of value to that.
Bobby Hodge 38:52
Yeah, you, you brought up at the beginning that your degree was in communications, and you're in HR. There's not directly related, but I imagine there are some skills that you brought from your communication communications background.
Justin Wayman 39:04
Quite a quite a few skills I've come to find out in in that regard, that was one of the reasons why I chose strategic communication, was because, as I looked at it, and for me, I was, I was working at the time, my last year of college, and I was looking at the degree and pursuing, and I said, Okay, here's the main kind of summary of the skills that it builds the credentials of the criteria. And I looked at those and said, hey, those are things that you can take and actually do something with public relations, being able to speak with people, you can deal with that communication key element in any job. So why wouldn't I want to take the skill of learning how to become a good communicator, how to understand that still something I still enjoy learning about this day. So you
Bobby Hodge 39:51
never know when you'll get asked
Justin Wayman 39:54
to come on a random podcast. Yeah. So looking for me, it was finding. Those skills and seeing where, where are some of these things that I can use to make a living, did that I can learn to build from, and I've learned a lot of new skills since then, foundationally, though, that's where a lot of it started for me was, was going back from there and saying, Okay, this is something. It was actually worth. Something wasn't just something I enjoyed doing or pursuing, but it was something that had real world applicability for me, and I said that that, to me, has a lot, lot of value, and I want to pursue that. I want to do that. And there's still quite a few things that I do, even to this day, in a professional capacity, that I reflect back on and the foundations of that and where it started, right here, unless you use campus, just point blank. Okay, yeah, that's where it started, and this is where it's at now. So it's there. It's just really a matter of, how do you begin to shift your mind from I'm heading to the finish line, to what I would say is more of a growth mindset of, hey, I'm using this to grow to the next opportunity to the launch pad of my career. That's what my degree is. It's my launch pad for my career. That's, that's what I would say on that.
Trekker Burt 41:14
Well, let's shift gears. You're a little myth versus reality.
Bobby Hodge 41:21
Yeah, I kind of just want your thoughts on these. These are some things that come up for students. We've talked a little bit about, you know, school and everything. GPA as somebody that hires students. How much does it matter? Does it matter?
Justin Wayman 41:37
Not much. Short answer, yeah, not much from a from a professional experience in a lot of positions where a college degree is a credential, your GPA, if anything, if it's requested or it's needed, it's more of a performance indicator. It's not so much as Do you have the skills? Do you have the knowledge? It's more of a performance indicator, in my perspective, and from my professional point of view, a GPA doesn't have a lot of value to what we do. It doesn't it's not relevant. I'm more concerned on do you have the degree, and are you teachable? And what can you bring? Versus, hey, you had a 3.73 and this person had a 3.91 mm. Not not as much. But there are other industries where GPA does come into play true, because it shows clearly how expertise your knowledge is in in that respective area. I'm going to give you an example, just because I have a family member when talking about nuclear physics. And we're, to me, it's a foreign language in that regard. But when you're talking in that respect, we're talking about something that is extremely detailed. A GPA is going to be a factor of significance. 3.1 versus 3.8 will be pretty big. Tell me, tell me which which person you're leaning towards based upon the subject matter. So it's not something that's irrelevant. It has relevancy in the right space, is what I would say there next.
Bobby Hodge 43:15
I think it's one of those qualifying factors. You know, you need to see that you didn't completely fail college, but yeah, it's like you said, the 3.7 versus 3.8
Justin Wayman 43:27
if I'm really curious, I'll ask for a transcript, but I'm not gonna ask for that specifically.
Bobby Hodge 43:32
Next question, next question. So background on this. Statistically Gen Z is spending about 1.8 years at each job. I don't know how they came up with this either, because Gen Z is just entering the workforce. I think they've been in the workforce for 1.8 years. So take the statistics however you will buy familiar with it. Yeah, it's been shown that, you know, the younger people have gotten, the less time they're spending at jobs. They're not doing the they're not reaching the pension,
Trekker Burt 43:59
they're not the company. Man, no, is it a red flag? Job hopping a red flag.
Justin Wayman 44:06
It can be. It really can be. Ultimately, job hopping is a red flag from a recruitment or a talent management standpoint. It is a red flag depending on the position. So, for instance, if this is considered more of an entry level or a support team type role, not as crucial, not as crucial, however, this is a management type role. Now that's becomes a factor of significance. You're spending essentially, you know, 18 months, 20 months at each job before you make a change. I don't think the management team wants to be doing this again in 20 months. Yeah, like this. They're looking for something a bit more long tenure. Now, I can tell you with some of the companies that I've that I've been doing work with and. The management teams there, tenure and how long you've been at a certain place has a pretty big factor, depending on the position it does, and particularly if you're working at a place for less than a year or a year, that's a red flag, because you're jumping ship about every 10 to 12 months, just looking for a different destination, a different different boat to join. There. There are consequences to that. From an employer standpoint, from a recruitment standpoint, it's hard to employ and teach somebody to do that. And I think, I think one of the biggest elements that comes into this is really the hypothesis and the estimate that people give in terms of, how long does it take to really learn a job and become good at it? A lot of us would say probably only a few months. Well, in real world, reality six months at the least, but we're looking at 1012, sometimes 14 months for someone to really learn how to do their job and to also learn how to do all well. So if you're leaving during that timeframe, I'm just barely teaching you how to do the job. You're finally learning how to do it. You're getting good at it, and you decide to go somewhere else. Yeah, I don't think I really want to do that. Yep. So if, if you're not working for, if you're not working somewhere, putting in commitment, putting a little bit of time, something to consider in in your recruitment history and where you go. I It's not the only factor. It is a factor that employers look at. Loyalty has value. You're willing to stay somewhere for a few years. It has value, whereas if you just want to chase something else, whether it's money or hype or just the fad of what the company is, or a trend there's, there's going to be some fallout results from that. May not experience them now, but you might later on down the line, when you're saying, hey, I need a stable job. I need to stay somewhere. I've been jumping around for a while, and you can't seem to even get an interview. You can't seem to get hired. It's been three, four months. What's going on? You didn't stay anywhere from more than 12 to 14 months. It's
Bobby Hodge 47:29
probably it, yeah, yeah. I think that, unfortunately for students that you know might do that too, you're ready for the next thing. You might have, like, learned the whole job. But what experience are you missing out on by not staying around long enough to say, okay, learned the process as I learned how to do the job. Here's how I'm going to innovate on it, so that now you go to an interview and rather than saying, like, Yeah, I know how to do this and this and this, it was I learned how to do this. I learned how to do this, and I learned that this was not great, and so we did it this way instead. Now companies doing this like you kind of cut yourself short of that lifespan of a job. And I don't think you need to stay somewhere for 15 years, but you know, two,
Justin Wayman 48:10
three, if you love it, if you love it, and it's the great fit for you, then I mean, by all means, do what you want to do. What I would add to your comments on that is from a staying and learning perspective. A lot of individuals, especially those who plan on graduating the next three years. Mo, more often than not, I probably hear seven out of 10 times, what are you see when I ask, what are you seeking for in a job? They ask, I want growth. I want an opportunity to grow, to learn, to lead. I want to become a manager in three years. Okay, great. Love the ambition. Love the aspirations. Mindset is great. Here's the challenge, though, most managers and leaders in companies that are chosen come from the team members who are really, really good at their jobs. They don't know how to be a great manager yet, but they're really, really good at their job. They're kind of the all star of the team they they're the person that everybody goes to, that's the person that often and typically gets picked or promoted to be the next manager, to be the next leader. That takes time, not just 12 months. Takes typically about two years or more for that kind of thing to happen. So if you're going to leave a company early, you're forfeiting essentially that opportunity at that position, at that role, at that company, rather than sticking out through the hard time. There's a lot of reasons why people leave. We don't have enough time. I don't have enough paper to go through all but ultimately, what I would say is simply this is when it comes to making a change, leaving a company or. Or whatever you're pursuing, it needs to be something that really matters to you. It's or do you need a change? Are you just dealing with some hard times right now? Is things a struggle? Because one of the things that I've seen with managers and team members is life gets hard, work starts to struggle. You start to have performance issues. And they think, Oh, I just need a different job. Things aren't working here, so they leave, they go to a new job. You know, guess what? Eight months later, those same problems are coming back. They're resurfacing. Stick it out through the hard times. Don't sell yourself short. Yeah, don't. Don't just think, hey, it's my job. I just need a job. A new job, typically, is not going to fix the problem,
Trekker Burt 50:42
consequence of tick tock brain.
Bobby Hodge 50:45
Okay, last misconception that I want to clear up, because we talked a lot about being qualified, you know, even if your degree is simply just a qualifier on your resume, but there's plenty of jobs that ask for all sorts of qualifications that maybe don't need all of them. And students get scared to even apply. They go, Well, I don't meet all of this, plus have 10 years of experience, so I'm just not even
Justin Wayman 51:09
going to apply. And that's an entry level position, right? Yes, yeah, okay. This is what I would this is what I would tell any student, whether you're graduating the next three years or later in regards to an opportunity, and what is listed on the resume, or, I should say, what's listed on the job description is the 100th percentile person. Kind of the ideal match, for lack of better terms, it's the unicorn person, okay, would be awesome if the person that we hire for this role, this individual has all those credentials, all of that experience, would it would be heavenly, great reality. That person, most likely does not even exist. You're not going to find them. So what I would advise any student on or any job Hunter, if the position is appealing to you, and I would see if you meet 65 70% of what's on there, take the chance. Take the shot. Because most companies, not all, but most companies, typically hire for the right fit. They want to hire the right person for the job, not just fill the
Trekker Burt 52:26
space. Maybe some of those things can be taught Exactly.
Justin Wayman 52:30
There's quite a few managers that I've worked with where we that's literally what we talk about when we're going through our recruitment phase. Is Kay, what kind of person are we really looking for? Well, I like this guy and this lady and all of that. And a lot of times what it comes down to is, and I've got a few managers that say this quite often. They said, I can teach you how to do the job, but I can't teach you how to treat customers the right way. I can teach you how to do the job. I can train you on how to run the projects, run the reports. I can train you on all that, but what I can't train is your creativity. That's a factor, right there. So just because you don't meet the qualifications 100% doesn't mean don't go for the job. Firsthand experience, I was not very well qualified to be the human resource administrator. When I started my journey in HR, I was coming from marketing, so I didn't have a whole lot of that knowledgeable experience that those guys wanted. What made a big difference. I later learned from them, as time went on, as we worked together, as they found it is, and they shared this with me, is
Justin Wayman 53:39
we knew how hard you work, we knew how teachable you were,
Justin Wayman 53:47
and we saw how you worked with people, like you could communicate with people. Those are things that we can't teach, and because we can't teach or train somebody in those aspects that spoke a lot more to us. That was more valuable than simply saying, Do you have a basic understanding about these various confidentiality laws, right? And so for any individual, if you're thinking about a job or if it, if it appeals to you, you maybe don't match it 100% that's okay. You don't need to match it 100% but do you believe that you match it competitively to give yourself a shot? Perfect.
Bobby Hodge 54:27
Yes. Worst thing that happens, you get an automated rejection letter. So
Justin Wayman 54:31
the worst thing that happens, automated rejection letter, but I mean, how to get interview offers? That's a whole nother podcast.
Bobby Hodge 54:37
We can talk well. I Yeah. Thank you so much, Justin. I think, I think this is kind of a good place to end on. We've covered a lot of different topics, and you've given some some good, valuable insight that I think hopefully our students can listen to, feel a little less scared about the future, and maybe have some things that they can prepare for. I
Trekker Burt 54:57
wish I would have heard all of this. Right, right? About eight years ago.
Justin Wayman 55:00
Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here, if I may. There's just a couple of things that I want to share in terms of our subjects here, as we've talked about realistic expectations, your first job out of college, and then why does a college degree still matter to employers and to companies. Realistic expectations going out, I would tell any individual coming out of college your first job, expect the reality to be hard. Point blank, it's going to be hard. Number one, it's going to be hard. Number two, you're going to have to learn, and in learning, you're going to need to ask questions, so be ready to ask questions. And then third, as we talked about, is it is going to be a bit of a shock. There's going to be a lot of things that you don't know. Start learning them. Whether that's for your co worker, your manager, start learning them. Why a college degree really matters. One, because it sets you apart from others. Two, it shows commitment and loyalty, and three, it shows a foundation of knowledge and skills that can't be taught in another setting. It's very difficult to teach a lot of things you learn through a college degree outside of your major, your minor, your subject, to focus, but it's really hard to teach those but your college degree is still important, because most employers, and especially recruiters, we look at that and we see that as a launch pad. It's a it's a catalyst to send you to the next highest caliber in your career,
Bobby Hodge 56:43
perfect everything we talked about. So hey, thank you. Thank you so much. Justin, thank you. Okay, tune in next time. We're gonna have more great guests. Thank you so much.