What happens when you’re offered the job you’ve been waiting for, but the pay or benefits aren’t as great as you hoped? You can either reluctantly accept the job as-is, decline, and start the job search all over again, or you can listen to this episode of Career Cafe, where Brandon, McKinley, and returning special guest Madalyn Swanson will teach you how to negotiate fair compensation in a professional manner. We don’t recommend these tips to negotiate the price of a sandwich at your favorite cafe…. but we do recommend staying until the end for a Career Center dad joke!
00;00;09;07 - 00;00;31;06
McKinley Hatch
Welcome to Career Cafe, a podcast to help you thrive in the professional world. Today's episode The Worth of your work negotiating salary and benefits. We're going to be talking, obviously, about negotiating salary and benefits. This will be so fun. And joining us today, we have Brandon Street and Madalyn Swanson with us today. Welcome back, Madalyn. We're excited to have you.
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Madalyn Swanson
I'm happy to be back McKinley.
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McKinley Hatch
She joined us a few episodes ago and we're excited to she's here. So both of them are coaches for students and they help coach them on these very topics. So let's just dive right in and talk about researching salary and benefits before, right and before you can just jump right in and negotiate. Obviously, we got to train students on how to do that, right?
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McKinley Hatch
That's right. So let's let's do it.
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Brandon Street
Well, one of the things, you know, I'm going to start talking about in this whole thing is a lot of jobs out there now have this open negotiation, right. Lot don't list salaries anymore for that exact reason. So you need to become a great negotiator. You do. This is an important thing that you need to understand before you get in front of employer.
00;01;12;08 - 00;01;31;09
Brandon Street
And they're like, all right, what would you like for a salary range? And so a couple of things to I would suggest individuals as first, you need to conduct thorough research on what people are paying in those industries. So you need to understand if I'm coming in with just my degree, not a lot of experience, what are they paying those individuals?
00;01;31;11 - 00;01;55;13
Brandon Street
There are some great tools to be able to look us up there. I know the workforce services in the state of Utah has some great resources that allow you to break down jobs to find out specifically what are they paid at entry level, but also what are they paid in certain areas, Even they break it down to Washington County, to central Utah and other areas where you can say, this is what I could anticipate in this area.
00;01;55;13 - 00;02;01;04
Brandon Street
So you're ready with that baseline, What am I worth? And that's really important. To understand what are others making.
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Madalyn Swanson
Now I think Brandon I think location is incredibly important because you could spend all this time researching your salary for one area and go to another area and find out that you're all wrong. And that's kind of nerve racking. Other great places are Glassdoor.com. There's job boards in California. They have to post by law, they have to post salaries.
00;02;20;28 - 00;02;38;26
Madalyn Swanson
So they're also a good resource. But, you know, again, California is a different cost of living. And then there's also industry reports that you can gather this information. Again, research is so important, just like in your job search, everything related to finding a job. Getting a job and negotiating salary comes down to research.
00;02;39;00 - 00;02;55;18
Brandon Street
Yeah, it's really important to make sure you understand that because if you go to a job and then they without doing your research and they ask you, you know, tell us what you think you should be making for this job, and you indicate something that's way too high for for your area, They may not consider you anymore. Or let's say you say way too low.
00;02;55;18 - 00;02;56;19
Brandon Street
What happens then?
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Madalyn Swanson
They're going to take that. You're going to take that low salary and be so excited that they're saving money.
00;03;01;11 - 00;03;24;10
Brandon Street
Yep. And you are missing out on a lot of money potentially. Right. And so so I think it's important again, to do that research, but also understand a few other factors. Consider cost of living where you're going. You talked about this matter a little bit there, but understand there are places that more are more expensive. So even though you may be making a little bit more, perhaps you're actually making less in the end because of that, You know, and so there's some great research.
00;03;24;10 - 00;03;43;14
Brandon Street
I don't know if you've been on Nerdwallet, they've got a cost of living calculator on there. The allows you to say where you are and where you're going to see the difference between the cost of what would be there. But there's other things like your years of experience that you need to take in consideration the level of the level degree or knowledge or education that you have.
00;03;43;16 - 00;03;51;17
Brandon Street
So all these things you need to take into account when you understand first what they're paying in that area and then add the other things that you have with that.
00;03;51;19 - 00;04;02;01
Madalyn Swanson
Yep, I think all of that is great. I also recommend looking at rent prices for the area too, because that's really going to highly, significantly impact your your salary negotiation as well.
00;04;02;02 - 00;04;04;18
Brandon Street
Well, and we can't forget that it's not just about salary.
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Madalyn Swanson
No, no.
00;04;05;09 - 00;04;24;14
Brandon Street
Right. I mean, when we talk about an overall package of of what you're going to get from employer, what you're paying in health care and what you're paying for other benefits is also part of that. And you need to understand that even though you might again make more money in your salary, you might come out in the end lower if those benefits aren't great too, right?
00;04;24;14 - 00;04;41;15
Madalyn Swanson
If you only have one week off per year and you're making a set salary, but another job is offering three weeks off per year for the same salary, you're actually making less money. You know, even with with that job, with less vacation time. So salary isn't salary isn't just your paycheck.
00;04;41;15 - 00;04;42;13
Brandon Street
Yeah, right.
00;04;42;15 - 00;05;05;29
McKinley Hatch
Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for talking about salary and benefits. Right. I love that you touched on benefits there. That is really important when deciding on if you want a job or not. Let's let's jump into understanding your value. Right. So you can share with them, especially when you're in that negotiating process, why you would, you know, be a value to them and how you can benefit them.
00;05;06;01 - 00;05;14;03
McKinley Hatch
Right. And then remind me at the end of this, I would love to have you reenact a salary negotiation for our listeners. I think that could be really valuable. Okay.
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Brandon Street
Absolutely.
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McKinley Hatch
Yeah. So anyway, let's talk about your value.
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Madalyn Swanson
So I think it's really important for you to again, go back to when you're looking for a job and you're looking at your skills, I want you to take an inventory of your own, your own skills, your own worth, and know what you're contributing to that company. A lot of people have some great transferable skills that can't be taught easily.
00;05;36;08 - 00;06;05;16
Madalyn Swanson
And so look at that. Look at what you're worth after that. And then also look at your qualifications. The achievements you've made. If you're hit a dean's list that shows that you have some hard work and dedication. But I also this is where you really need to be confident and advocate for yourself in these kinds of situations. I also recommend that students set up a budget before doing their salary negotiation because there's going to be payments and things like that, like insurance or student loan payments.
00;06;05;16 - 00;06;17;00
Madalyn Swanson
If you took student loans out, rent payments, things like that. And so if you don't know how much you need to live, then you don't know how how to negotiate your salary in the right way.
00;06;17;02 - 00;06;39;18
Brandon Street
If you do what you're talking about, Madeleine, if you do the right research, you understand your set of skills and you've kind of went through all of those types of things. Understand the education you're bringing to the table, you know, the salary that you're about you should be making. You should go in there confident, confident, knowing that if they ask me this question, I can validate why I'm worth what I am.
00;06;39;18 - 00;06;51;00
Brandon Street
And that's really what we're trying to get at, right, is if if it comes up and we'll talk about this in a moment, but once we get there, it's important to be able to to have confidence in understanding why I'm worth what I'm about to negotiate. Right.
00;06;51;03 - 00;07;04;11
Madalyn Swanson
Right. Knowledge is power, everybody. And so, like, when you have that confidence behind you and make sure you have some things written down on that piece of paper going into a salary negotiation. So you feel that that confidence going in?
00;07;04;13 - 00;07;26;10
McKinley Hatch
Yeah. Awesome. Thank you for talking about your value and understanding that and utilizing that in the negotiation process. Let's bring in preparing for negotiation. So we've talked about all of this, right? Researching salary benefits, understanding your value. Now let's dive into actually preparing. You're getting ready to go negotiate.
00;07;26;12 - 00;07;46;18
Brandon Street
Yeah. This is this is where not only preparation but practice comes into play, right? It's not natural for all of us to do this. Some of us are better than others, right? I'm not one of them. Okay, so this is something. But it can be learned. And again, if you have confidence in why you're worth what you are, it's it's easier to have those conversations.
00;07;46;20 - 00;08;05;17
Brandon Street
So a few things I'd suggest, you know, participate and practice with others. Right. Like take those that you trust and have them ask you these questions and kind of run it by them a little bit. Prepare all your notes, the research you've done beforehand, make sure you have those things available that you can go over. You know what I mean?
00;08;05;17 - 00;08;29;07
Brandon Street
With yourself prior to going to the this hour negotiate or your interview. Right. But also make sure that, you know, there's a technique I know they use a negotiator called BATNA your best alternative to a negotiated agreement. Understand what the lowest amount it is that you take. Right. And then you know, you want to try to understand what that is and then where your worth, right.
00;08;29;07 - 00;08;44;03
Brandon Street
What you're trying to get. So there's the lowest, what you're trying to get and then what would be basically gravy, right? And so you identify those ranges a little bit to see and where you hope to be able to get in your negotiations, because what you're trying to find is the overlap between you and the employer in all of that.
00;08;44;03 - 00;09;02;25
Brandon Street
Right. If you can find that that perfect spot, that's where you want to be. But if if they are, you know, stringent and or stick to that, they're going to be underneath of what, you know, you need. You need to be willing to walk away from some of those negotiations. If they're not willing to give you what you know, you're worth.
00;09;02;28 - 00;09;29;09
Madalyn Swanson
Yeah, I think I think that sets a bad precedent. If you go in and just agree because they wouldn't go with you. I mean, that that shows that they may not valued you as much as you'd like to be. And also understand that is part of your best alternative. Alternative to go see that agreement would be like to advocate for yourself in different areas, like maybe it's more contribution to a 401K or something like that versus just salary up front.
00;09;29;16 - 00;09;39;18
Madalyn Swanson
So make sure you have that information and know where you're most comfortable. Again, going back to that budget, understanding how much money you need to survive, I think that's a really important thing.
00;09;39;21 - 00;09;51;06
McKinley Hatch
Yeah. Awesome. Thank you for sharing how we can prepare for that. Let's now move into how to do it right. We've talked about a lot of preparation. Let's talk about actually negotiating salary now.
00;09;51;06 - 00;10;08;02
Brandon Street
Let’s do it. So if an employer and this is the first thing I suggest in any good negotiation, we already know this do not reveal what it is that you want first, if possible, everybody out there so hopefully knows that. But I know we're all working on that. But if an employer asks you, you know, they say, you know, Madeleine, what?
00;10;08;04 - 00;10;30;14
Brandon Street
You know what? You've come in today. We've had a great conversation. What are you hoping to obtain from a salary or what do you want for a salary? You know, this is an opportunity for us hopefully to deflect. Right. First of all, if we don't have the job, the first deflection is if we don't have the job offer At this point, I would probably say I'm so happy that you're you know, you're willing to talk about that with me and open about and go, you know, go negotiating salary.
00;10;30;17 - 00;10;47;07
Brandon Street
I hope, you know, I'm hoping first to be offered the job. If this is an offer, this is great. I'm I'd love to have that conversation. If not, I'm hoping to wait till we, you know, push that off till we have a job offer. I'd love to talk about that more at that point. But what you don't want to do is work yourself right out of a job before you're even offered.
00;10;47;07 - 00;11;12;09
Brandon Street
Because once you're offered the job, now you know they want you right now, you know. But if they continue to ask, even if you have a job offer and the they continue to ask at some point, you know, you want to try to deflect to them and say what is it you typically? And this is what I usually ask is what is it you typically offer people with my experience in education who are coming into your company, what do you typically offer them for a salary?
00;11;12;11 - 00;11;33;11
Madalyn Swanson
Brendan That's an excellent that's an excellent question. And it it's not confrontational or anything like that. It's a it's a great information seeking and it just helps you in that negotiation process and hopefully they respond with you with the salary range and, and if it's ideal for you, Brendan, what do you do? Do you keep going or should you just let it go?
00;11;33;11 - 00;11;51;02
Brandon Street
Yeah, that's a great question. Again, this is where you know, your BATNA that we talked about earlier, right? You know what the minimum is, You know, where you hope to get and you know what's gravy right? And so if they come out and they're in your gravy range and you can right there, you try to hold a straight face, okay, Don't kid, don't throw the confetti yet.
00;11;51;02 - 00;12;11;09
Brandon Street
Right. Like try to hold a straight face. But but at that point, you know, you can talk to or some other things, but you already know that's where you wanted to be at that point. Why continue to negotiate unless you see an open door? Right. If they say this is the range, you know what I mean, then you might be able to say, okay, well, you know, a little wiggle room there, but don't get, you know, doing at that point.
00;12;11;12 - 00;12;24;26
Brandon Street
Get overwhelmed and and and continue to seek more if you already know, boy, that's gravy where I wanted to be that you might be able to settle at that point with them if it's under then you better be able to tell them why you're worth more.
00;12;24;28 - 00;12;41;25
Madalyn Swanson
Absolutely. It goes back to that self-reflection, that self research. What are the skills that you have if they come at you without a lower salary range, say, because of these skills, abilities and that I own and I possess that I have in front of you right now, I believe my worth is between this range and this range. Yeah.
00;12;42;00 - 00;12;43;12
Madalyn Swanson
And it's always great to do a range, isn't it?
00;12;43;12 - 00;13;08;00
Brandon Street
Brandon Absolutely. And you can say I, you know, the research I did through the Department of Workforce Services or Labor Market Information showed that people are coming in, let's say $50,000, right? So they're coming in just at this. I've also got this certificate. You know, I've have this many years experience. I've done this and this. I think with those types of things, I'd be fair to ask for 54.
00;13;08;03 - 00;13;26;21
Brandon Street
But again, it's just you need to know why you're asking for the extra 4000 if you're coming in with just a diploma, not a lot of experience, you're probably not justified in asking 54 because of what your justification at that point. But if you come in with the knowledge of of what they typically make and that sets the baseline for you to be able to have the negotiation you want.
00;13;26;23 - 00;13;32;05
Brandon Street
And then on top of that, why you're worth the extra. What you're asking for, then I think it's fair to have that conversation.
00;13;32;08 - 00;13;56;18
Madalyn Swanson
I think it's really important to have that conversation because there are sometimes when employers aren't really aware that their salary range is below the market value. I've had that happen with employers when they called me and said, I'm not getting people for this position and we had that conversation that you're really, really low. And if I was in the hiring position, I would love to have someone come back and give me some actual tangible data on why that that's not a great salary, right?
00;13;56;19 - 00;13;59;26
Madalyn Swanson
So there's so many different layers to why it's important to do this.
00;13;59;28 - 00;14;27;12
Brandon Street
Right. And again, it starts all of front right now. I would say this once you do settle with them. Now, again, I do want to stress that negotiation is not just about salary. There's all kinds of things you can actually negotiate. I know of people who've negotiated childcare as part of their their package, Right. People who negotiated working remotely, people who negotiated working certain days or times that they want.
00;14;27;14 - 00;14;43;16
Brandon Street
And so there's lots of things that you can negotiate, but you just need to be willing to have that conversation with the employer once they want you. Again, that's what I stress. Once you know they want you, Do you understand that it's a lot easier to have that conversation at that point. But if you start praying and all these things before that, they may go, Man, Yeah, I don't know.
00;14;43;16 - 00;14;45;17
Brandon Street
We have this other kind of we're thinking about too, you know what I mean?
00;14;45;20 - 00;14;55;17
Madalyn Swanson
Right? Right. If if you're if you're bringing up all this stuff the minute you meet them, they don't want to talk to you. You've got to you got to at least be the one that they want before you start going into all of this.
00;14;55;17 - 00;15;14;24
Brandon Street
Right. And here's the last thing I say. Once you know, and you settle on whatever it is you negotiate with the employer, your salary, benefits, and those extras get it in writing. And, you know, there's there's I think there's good ways to to ask that. I mean, you can simply say, hey, I'd love to have what we settle on day in writing.
00;15;15;01 - 00;15;34;13
Brandon Street
Or do you usually write this up at a contract? Is that what you informally do at your business? I mean, but in some way, try to get that in writing from them. Because there's also been times I know people negotiated things or they're a month into it, they find out they don't have that. And it is really difficult to go back and help them remember what you negotiated at that point.
00;15;34;15 - 00;15;48;23
Madalyn Swanson
Absolutely. Especially if they have a bunch of contracts that they're signing. If they're hiring multiple people at that time, they they might forget, you know, and it just it's good for you to to to know what to plan and to show anyone who might need proof of employment to.
00;15;48;26 - 00;15;59;12
Brandon Street
And there may be some atypical things that that you negotiated. And if those aren't being honored, then at least you have that in writing to say, hey, you know, here, here's what we negotiated and and carry that out that way.
00;15;59;12 - 00;16;01;14
Madalyn Swanson
So it's all about empowering you.
00;16;01;16 - 00;16;02;07
Brandon Street
It's yeah.
00;16;02;13 - 00;16;23;25
McKinley Hatch
Thank you, Brandon Madalyn, for joining us on this podcast and talking about negotiating salary. We learned today that the process ahead of time in negotiation and doing that research is just as important as learning how to negotiate. Right? So thank you and thanks listeners for tuning in to Career Cafe today on our episode, The worth of your work negotiating salary and benefits.
00;16;23;27 - 00;16;49;02
McKinley Hatch
And then don't forget to tune in next week on decisions and destinations, navigating how to accept and decline opportunities with poise. And then, of course, don't forget to give us a follow on social media, specifically Instagram at SUU career center and don't forget to subscribe, but I have to end with a dad joke. Of course, I'm selling a book entitled How to Be an Expert in Negotiations.
00;16;49;04 - 00;16;50;28
McKinley Hatch
I'll accept any price for it.
00;16;51;05 - 00;16;51;14
Brandon Street
oh boy.
00;16;51;22 - 00;16;54;14
Madalyn Swanson
What a negotiator.
00;16;54;16 - 00;16;58;27
McKinley Hatch
Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.