Did you know that employers will call people you’ve worked with previously so they can tell if you’re the real deal before they decide to hire you? This is called a reference check, and you get to tell the employer who to contact! In this episode, Brandon, Clara, and McKinley dive into everything references—their importance, how to select them, and how to create your reference document. Gather a group of friends, and listen until the end for a Career Center dad joke!
00;00;09;09 - 00;00;31;07
McKinley Hatch
Welcome to Career Cafe, a podcast for all things career related to help you thrive in the professional world. Welcome to our podcast episode, Refining your References where we're going to talk about writing references and how to go about that. Joining us today, we have Brandon Street and Clara Webster and myself, the moderator. We are all experts in professional develop talk topics.
00;00;31;07 - 00;00;45;17
McKinley Hatch
Well, maybe not as much me. I'm here to moderate so anyway, let's dive into why references matter. So why don't you start us off and tell us what references are and why they matter?
00;00;45;20 - 00;01;04;22
Brandon Street
Yeah, I think, you know, references are a great way to help differentiate yourself from others, but also to validate yourself as a candidate, right as they go through the process and the time comes to reach out to your references. I know that for me in particular, when I've looked for people to hire, references have been a great way to solidify.
00;01;04;23 - 00;01;24;17
Brandon Street
I'm hiring the right person by what people say about them. Now it's understood that, you know, obviously they're going to pick the people who usually will speak good about them. But I have had instances where I spoke to people and they didn't speak so well about the candidate. And that in itself was eye opening, you know, and and so references can be very beneficial to candidates.
00;01;24;17 - 00;01;52;28
Brandon Street
But also, if you're not careful and they play your cards right, they can be detrimental in the process as well. So we're going to talk a bit today about about how to establish good references. But I think it does start with one thing, and that's being a great, you know, a great person on a job and making sure that as you're on a job, you're always creating references of those around you, right by your work ethic, the way you do jobs, the way you treat other people, you're creating or losing references all along the way.
00;01;52;28 - 00;02;02;16
Brandon Street
And so I think each day on the job, whether or not we're satisfied with our job, we should work that job in a way that we can create great references on the way out.
00;02;02;18 - 00;02;18;14
Clara Webster
Yeah, And especially, I mean, if you're wanting to leave a job, you know, if you have a good attitude, the chances of you being able to find another one will increase. So yeah. So yeah, it's always good to treat a job as basically, you know, potential place to get more references.
00;02;18;16 - 00;02;40;00
Brandon Street
So as far as references go, you know, we usually suggest as you're creating a reference. So if an employer ask for references, I don't recommend that a reference list goes on a resume generally, right? There are some resume types of that does occur in, but generally we suggest that the resume list is a separate document from your resume and your cover letter.
00;02;40;02 - 00;02;59;11
Brandon Street
It actually serves as a third document, usually with its own header. And, you know, and then we we include the reference list there. And again, you know, as we talk about the importance of of these references, these are great ways for you to show the work you've done through what people have to say about you.
00;02;59;14 - 00;03;05;04
McKinley Hatch
Awesome. Thank you so much. Brandon, tell us how you go about selecting your references.
00;03;05;07 - 00;03;24;26
Clara Webster
Yeah. So one thing that I always say, you know, when you're looking at different references, you know, the most important thing is find someone just like Brandon was saying earlier, you can talk well about you. You know, I've been I've hired people and, you know, had to reach out to references and that has made or it can make or break whether you're going to get hired.
00;03;24;26 - 00;03;41;16
Clara Webster
You know, there was a candidate that we thought was going to be really great and it was kind of neck and neck between the two of them. But when it came down to the references, you know, one had references that gave great, you know, recommendations and said like, I would, you know, 100% hire this person. They're phenomenal.
00;03;41;16 - 00;04;00;25
Clara Webster
You know, we we just loved having them around. But then the other candidate chose people in the office that were, you know, really high status, but they didn't know him super well. And so they were thinking, like this person will give me an advantage because I would be working with them in that office. But they didn't know them and how they, you know, are at work.
00;04;00;26 - 00;04;24;14
Clara Webster
So they couldn't give a very good reference. And so we ended up going with the other candidate. So so that's the number one thing when selecting a reference, make sure they can talk well about you and speak to your professional abilities and character. But typically what we usually recommend for like who those references should be, if you're applying for a job you want to have at least one supervisor in there for sure.
00;04;24;14 - 00;04;47;26
Clara Webster
You know someone who is kind of directly overseeing the work that you've done. And then and if possible, you really recommend having like two supervisors and then maybe like a professor on campus or another staff member, you know, someone else that you've worked with kind of in a different capacity, you know, because professors, you do a lot of you know, they see a lot of your work, You're in them or you're with them in class.
00;04;47;29 - 00;05;01;10
Clara Webster
And so anyway, it's good to get a mix up, sorry, a mix of supervisors and their mentors or professors or other people like that. But there definitely are some type of references that you want to avoid.
00;05;01;10 - 00;05;17;04
Brandon Street
Yeah, I mean, I would suggest that you avoid friends and family you don't want to have on your reference list, Mom. You know what I mean? That's I just don't think that's a great idea. Moms can say great things about you, hopefully. Right. But I think she's going to say that he doesn't clean his room much. But he's a great kid.
00;05;17;04 - 00;05;27;21
Brandon Street
Right. But so you don't want family or friends on there because you want them to again, you want the employer to understand that, Yeah, I have people in the professional world who can speak well of me.
00;05;27;23 - 00;05;43;29
Clara Webster
Yeah. And then another question that we get asked a lot too, is, well, what if my last job didn't end super well? Right? And I don't know if I can list that person as a reference either. You know, maybe we're on bad terms or I just don't know if they could speak well about me. And so. So, yeah.
00;05;43;29 - 00;05;44;27
Clara Webster
Brandon, what do you do in that?
00;05;44;27 - 00;06;08;21
Brandon Street
Yeah, that's a great question. So, I mean, you still can list colleagues, remember that and hopefully you hopefully haven't burned all your bridges on the last job. I mean, if that was the case, obviously you're not going to your references won't come from that job and they may ask you questions. You've got to be ready for that. But if if there's a particular individual and let's say it's your supervisor, you can you can ask for reference from a colleague and then hopefully use a supervisor from another job or things like that.
00;06;08;21 - 00;06;15;02
Brandon Street
But just be ready to you always need to be ready to answer the question of why you didn't do that right, just in case.
00;06;15;02 - 00;06;42;25
Clara Webster
So yeah, and even people have asked me too, like maybe they're looking for a new job right now and don't want their current supervisor to know they're looking great because obviously if they ask them to be reference, then they're going to have to tell them, I'm looking for another job. By the way. And so so yeah, just like Brandon said, be sure to know, you know, if they ask you about, you know, why didn't you list your last reference, you know, be sure to provide them with the reason that, you know, is it just, I hate that job.
00;06;42;25 - 00;06;59;13
Clara Webster
I need to get out of there. But, you know, just to say, you know, I have other colleagues that I thought could speak well of my qualifications, as you know as well, and didn't want my supervisor to, you know, maybe know just quite yet that I'm in this process. You know, just be honest with.
00;06;59;14 - 00;07;01;04
Brandon Street
Right, Exactly.
00;07;01;07 - 00;07;14;21
McKinley Hatch
Yeah. We've talked about selecting your references and who to decide to put on these documents. How do you go about? Well, we've talked about the importance of asking references before. You just put them down. Right.
00;07;14;24 - 00;07;31;02
Brandon Street
So that's so important, though. I, I literally saved the phone call where someone's called me and said, Hey, I'm calling on a reference on so-and-so. And I'm like, it had been like, first of all, they didn't ask me. Second of all, it's been a long time since we've worked together. I forgot the person who they were. gosh.
00;07;31;04 - 00;07;49;20
Brandon Street
And so they called me and said, they said, Hey, yeah, we're calling reference on so-and-so. Can you just tell me about it? I'm like, I'm sorry, I don't know who you're talking about. And they're like, so-and-so. But it's literally been years. I I'm talking five, six years since I had worked with them. And so it wasn't until I hung up that I realized who was and I felt so bad.
00;07;49;20 - 00;08;13;09
Brandon Street
No, I felt so bad. But but honestly, like, if that would have been avoided had that individual called me and just said, hey, heads up, applied for a job. So is it okay if I'm using you as a reference for that? Right. I would have totally remembered who this individual was when they called and I would have had great things to say, but I was caught so off guard that I my I just didn't remember who they were.
00;08;13;09 - 00;08;15;22
Brandon Street
And I guarantee you that did not help them.
00;08;15;25 - 00;08;16;27
McKinley Hatch
yeah.
00;08;16;29 - 00;08;41;18
Brandon Street
So ask I mean, and not only ask because, you know, one thing I'd suggest you do is when you do ask permission to be a reference guide, those references I call it priming your references, Right. So give them material and things that they should talk about when, when they talk to, you know, your potential employee or employer, Make sure that you bring up things like projects you did in class that they should remember because they're going to remember everything.
00;08;41;18 - 00;09;01;29
Brandon Street
Right? But if you help spark those memories, then they'll be ready when the call comes that they don't have to think through a bunch of things. So remind them of projects you did, how you work together, but also help them understand this is what they're looking for. I'm hoping you'll talk about these things because then you kind of keep it in the realm why you're good candidate for that job as well, right?
00;09;02;02 - 00;09;16;22
Clara Webster
Yeah. And so, yeah, every time I ask for a reference, I'll send them my resume. And if I'm doing a cover letter to, you know, I'll send them all my application documents, I'll even send them the job posting and then I'll prime them with some things like, you know, I really hoping you can touch on, you know. Yeah.
00;09;16;29 - 00;09;34;27
Clara Webster
This project that I did or different skills that, you know, they've seen me use. Yeah. It's really important to provide them. Well first it's important to make sure that they're okay with you or with you listing them as a preference. But then, you know, make sure you give them all the materials that they need and let them know what you're hoping they can touch on for you.
00;09;35;00 - 00;09;51;20
Brandon Street
And also let them know when they should probably be reached out to. Now, I would recommend you do this early in the application process. I know a lot of times we think the reference calls happen, you know, right after or you've been far into the process, right? Maybe at the end of the process. But I applied for a job.
00;09;51;20 - 00;10;09;26
Brandon Street
I went in for an interview and they were literally calling my references within 24 hours. I had no idea, even also on my references started coming to me and like, Hey, they're calling me right now. I'm like, What so? So just be aware that it could happen pretty quickly. And so you don't want to interview and then ask your references when they already could be calling them.
00;10;09;26 - 00;10;22;29
Brandon Street
Right? And so make sure you ask them early. Help them understand, Hey, I'm applying for some jobs right now. You may get contacted within a few weeks. Just kind of give them a heads up along the way what may be going on.
00;10;23;02 - 00;10;48;10
McKinley Hatch
Yeah, communication is huge with references and we talk about, you know, making sure they're where you hear including them or asking them for permission right first and then making them aware that you are including them on your reference document. But let's talk about building and keeping that strong relationship and communicating with them over time. Like you had mentioned, that person had been like five or six years and you probably hadn't heard from them once.
00;10;48;10 - 00;10;48;16
McKinley Hatch
Had you.
00;10;48;22 - 00;11;17;27
Brandon Street
No, I hadn't. Yeah. And so yeah, yeah. You make a really good point. And, and it is important to make sure that periodically if they're going to be a reference, keep in contact with them, even if it's a short note here in there, how you're doing asking how they're doing. You know I one interesting thing I when I applied for my first job after college, I used to professors as references on my and and they were they were professors who knew me well they could speak well of me and and what was really cool is, you know, I kept a relationship with them.
00;11;17;27 - 00;11;38;20
Brandon Street
They served as references. I got the job, which was really cool. I came back to the SUU area ten years, nine years after I got that job and ran into one of those who were my reference, a professor. And because of the that we had developed and continue to develop, he knew exactly why I was still and we had a great conversation.
00;11;38;20 - 00;11;54;24
Brandon Street
I thanked him for, you know, being my reference and, and still and getting the job that I did and that contributed to them being part of that process. And, and so keeping those references are important because when the time comes, you want them to know what you're doing now, too. Not just, yeah, we worked together ten years ago.
00;11;54;24 - 00;11;59;15
Brandon Street
You know, it's it's a little bit hard to say and be a good reference when you're talking about ten years ago.
00;11;59;15 - 00;12;17;21
Clara Webster
So yeah, and I've even got a couple people, you know, that I've used as references before, and I could easily see myself using them as references in the future. And so, you know, I'll take it. You don't have to like email them every week, you know, but you know, every couple of months I like to check in with one because she always she travels internationally all the time.
00;12;17;21 - 00;12;33;11
Clara Webster
So it's more for me just to be like, Hey, where you been lately? You know, just because she has cool stories. But but, you know, it's good to check in periodically, you know, maybe even like, once or twice a year, you know, send them a text or an email or if you happen to run into them, you know, and just just check in.
00;12;33;17 - 00;12;48;28
Clara Webster
Just so you know, when you do have that experience where you need to list a reference, then it's not going to be like, I haven't talked to them in ten years. I wonder if they'd still be okay with listing me or with me listing them and if they could even, you know, talk well about me still.
00;12;48;29 - 00;12;50;29
Brandon Street
Right, Right, right.
00;12;51;01 - 00;13;09;01
McKinley Hatch
I love it. I want to talk about lastly formatting your reference document. We've talked so much about what references are and who you should include on as a reference. And so how do you like format a reference document?
00;13;09;03 - 00;13;33;08
Clara Webster
Yeah, great question. And like Brandon said earlier, it is going to be a separate document from your resume and cover letter. Usually, you know, I mean, they should just be a page or you're usually listing like three people on it. But yeah, it's going to have the same header as your resume and cover letter. So your name with your contact information and then within that, like I said, typically they're going to ask for three references.
00;13;33;11 - 00;13;56;24
Clara Webster
Of course, you know, provide however many the job asked for, but usually that's three. And what you want to do is just list them down the page. You'll start with the references name. Underneath their name you'll list their position, and then underneath that, their contact information. So like for me, like if you're listing me as a reference, you'd put Clara Webster underneath that career advisor, you'd put Southern Utah University.
00;13;56;24 - 00;14;21;04
Clara Webster
Since that's where I work at currently. And then my contact by email and phone number right there, after you have kind of that section of who the person is, then you will have a brief description of like your professional relationship. So like if I was listing Brandon, my supervisor, as a reference, I would put Brandon Street is my direct supervisor in my career advisor position, right?
00;14;21;04 - 00;14;27;14
Clara Webster
You know, I just say just basically just show them how do you know this person and what capacity did you work with them in, What job was it?
00;14;27;19 - 00;14;43;18
Brandon Street
So one of the things I would suggest is just as with any document that you're creating and when you're applying for a job is make sure these are all branded together, right? Make sure they have the same font, they have the same look when they're looking at a reference list, they shouldn't be wondering, is this from the same person as the resume?
00;14;43;18 - 00;14;58;26
Brandon Street
Right? So make sure that the header and the font and the spacing and all those things replicate the same type of branding look that you had on the resume and the cover letter to ensure both professionalism. Right. And that first impression that you'll get.
00;14;58;28 - 00;15;11;06
McKinley Hatch
Thanks listeners for tuning in to Career Cafe. We have to end with a dad joke. Of course you guys. I just quit my job working for Nike. I just couldn't do it anymore.
00;15;11;09 - 00;15;15;01
Brandon Street
I just do it.
00;15;15;04 - 00;15;17;10
Clara Webster
Let's just do it.
00;15;17;12 - 00;15;18;17
Unknown
Tune in next week.